Questions about Davis VP 2 Siting

[FarmingtonWeather]

I think he could mow under it..  use one of those string trimmers, or  since he is going with the concept  of putting in a mast, could modify the surface under it, either kill off the grass ( the misses will like that one, you can bet... talking from experience and a lot of grass seed later),  put in a drain of pebbles or pea gravel under it in a depression with something to allow the water run off.

I would wonder one thing.. will the front of the solar panel get the sunlight , be able to send the signal up to his console, that is the antenna signal spread and then what happens in snow or any environmental situation.

Finally,   will it meet NWS / NOAA/? standards for rain collections as being correct.

But it could be done.  and this advice comes from a man sitting trying to modify his website theme, listing to ABBA on his ipod and realizing it is best to hear that when the family is gone, they might think I have become fruity...

Since grass under the sensors seems to be preferred I intended to mow under it with my garden tractor by raising it to the winter/snow height.  I though I could accomplish the best of both worlds.  Proper height 9 months of the year and the proper height above the snow when we get snow.

Why do you think it would be unable to accurately measure the rain?  Due to instability or having the mast next to it?  I asked my CWOP contact about how far to mount the rain bucket from the mast and he said 1-2' was enough, I thought 3' would be even better.  If you look at an "official" NWS/NOAA system, you will see they have all kinds of stuff surrounding their bucket and because a lot of stations are unmanned, they went with gravel around it:

http://www.allweatherinc.com/aviation/awss.html

Wonder why they didn't go with Astroturf

If I use my current mast location, it is on the south side of a hill with clear site to my house.  Therefore it will get more than enough sun for solar power and a clear site for the weather signal.   I also mentioned that the unit would be slid up to a higher point on the pole when the snow comes so the transmitter will always be above the ground/snow level.  What other environmental factors are you referring to that I didn't take into account?

Seems my Iowa neighbor is less critical of my design than the rest. 

Thanks bud

Lew

[aardvark]

the bucket will tip.  what Davis recommends and others as well to open the cover of the ISS and uplug the rain bucket , move it and the plug it back it in.  I have move it and had the console in the setup mode and got false readings that way.  They can be corrected and taken out, but it is a pain.   Since you are doing this not in the rain,  I would just uplug it, move it and plug it back in.

I can appreciate the drought, I am to your south and we haven't had rain for days.  

If you think the mast will hold up this winter when that wind comes out of the north on one of those Alberta Clippers....well you know how it  is in these parts and you have winters worse than I do ..

[hydrowx]

If you look at an "official" NWS/NOAA system, you will see they have all kinds of stuff surrounding their bucket and because a lot of stations are unmanned, they went with gravel around it:

http://www.allweatherinc.com/aviation/awss.html
Wonder why they didn't go with Astroturf

That link refers to an AWOS site vs ASOS used by the NWS. AWOS locations are not installed/maintained by the NWS and are not used for official climate purposes but provide realtime conditions for airport operations. Although it would still be important to site it correctly for accurate temp readings for density altitude and other observations.

[FarmingtonWeather]

So you have a clear shot to the horizon from NE to NW from 2' AGL? No trees, no houses, no outhouses, no passing Bambis, no leaping walleye, just a flat plain? Nothing that could cast a shadow on the sensor at any time of day or year?

As of right now, I have a clear shot from my office window to the bottom of the pole, unobstructed.   My current cheapy Honeywell is on the current mast and I have only lost that signal a couple times and not since moving my console nearer the window.  The Davis wireless signal has to be much better than my Honeywell.  There are some immature pine trees near it that will have to be cut down or moved or the mast will need to be moved.  I don't know how similar the signal is to my cordless phone, but my cordless phone can reach from my home office where the console will be all the way out to my mailbox, past the driveway.  That is all the way through the house, all the walls, through the trees in the yard and all the way out to the mailbox which is a distance of about 300'.  The biggest reason for switching to the Davis is to increase my wireless distance over my current setup.  Other than my barometer sticking twice my only gripe with my current system is losing sync now and again with one of the sensors.  As you know, the Honeywell setup doesn't even have external antennae and probably a worse frequency and probably a lower power signal.

Where are the solar sensors on the AWI setup?  unless they are above the anemometer, there is something that could cause a shadow to be created.  If the sensor is 3' away and the mast diameter is a few inches, it wouldn't block the sensor for long, even if it did at all.  I honestly don't know what the sun arc is here, but I can't imagine the mast causing a shadow on the sensor.  

I came up with this design because I can't think of a better way.  I don't think the one suggestion I got would work for me without buying another wireless transmitter and if I put it on the house, even on a 7' mast, it would be lower than being mounted on a 33' pole at the present location on the hill.  Once again, I like all of the feedback whether I agree or not, but it is still all valuable input.    I would be interested in seeing pictures of your setups so I can see what others have done that achieves CWOP siting criteria.  

Thanks again!

Lew

[Clanger]

Hello.
       You have put a lot of work into this and i hope you see this as a constructive comment.
I think the rain bucket would be OK in its position but not attached to the mast but bolted to a pole into the ground.
The screen with the temp sensors could be brought closer to the mast and make it more stable.
It just looks like there is a lot going on up there.
I just wonder, as others have said, if it will be stable enough.

Much of the time things are easy er on paper than in practice.

Edit. Lew There is a big long thread 'Post a Picture of your weather Station'

[FarmingtonWeather]

the bucket will tip.  what Davis recommends and others as well to open the cover of the ISS and uplug the rain bucket , move it and the plug it back it in.  I have move it and had the console in the setup mode and got false readings that way.  They can be corrected and taken out, but it is a pain.   Since you are doing this not in the rain,  I would just uplug it, move it and plug it back in.

I can appreciate the drought, I am to your south and we haven't had rain for days.  

If you think the mast will hold up this winter when that wind comes out of the north on one of those Alberta Clippers....well you know how it  is in these parts and you have winters worse than I do ..

Hmm....I have my current rain bucket on a threaded galvanized pipe so I can unscrew it and move or sevice it.  I thought it was too low so I unscrewed it, added a coupler and new piece of pipe, and screwed it back together again and never got a rain reading.  I can't fathom how moving if vertically 2-3' and back down again would disturb it at all?  if the bucket remains perfect vertical, no tipping, what is going to tip the bucket?  Only testing will tell

We have only had a half inch of rain all of July and we were already over 2" under in June and hardly any snow last winter so we didn't get much melt either.  At this rate we will no longer be the land of 10,000 lakes 

The current mast had a two-story Martin house on it for 15 years until two summers ago when it literally got ripped off the top of the pole by what I think was a tornado.  In the same storm I lost about 20 mature trees in my yard.  The Martin house was only held on by one of those set screw type things, and not very tightly because the mount was plastic so you couldn't torque down on it.  The wind surface of the 2-story Martin house was considerably more than the anemometer.  The storm that took out the Martin house was in June, after it survived 15 years of Alberta Clippers.  (Trying to remember the quote from Denny Green when he meant to say Alberta Clipper)

Thanks again!

Lew

[niko]

I'm not worried about the pole shadow, if it's on the S side of the pole then that's not an issue. I'm just surprised that you would have a clear shot to the horizon from that low to the ground.

[aardvark]

I'm not worried about the pole shadow, if it's on the S side of the pole then that's not an issue. I'm just surprised that you would have a clear shot to the horizon from that low to the ground.

something an aardvark would worry about.

[FarmingtonWeather]

Hello.
       You have put a lot of work into this and i hope you see this as a constructive comment.
I think the rain bucket would be OK in its position but not attached to the mast but bolted to a pole into the ground.
The screen with the temp sensors could be brought closer to the mast and make it more stable.
It just looks like there is a lot going on up there.
I just wonder, as others have said, if it will be stable enough.

Much of the time things are easy er on paper than in practice.

Edit. Lew There is a big long thread 'Post a Picture of your weather Station'

I realize the temp sensor could be closer...there is no shadow issue with it.    There is nothing about the sensor though that would be sway sensitive is there?

As an aside, I was reading somewhere about keeping the temp/humidity sensor away from metal pipes...perhaps that was something in regards to my Honeywell that isn't applicable to the Davis?  Seems since the Davis was made to mount on a steel pipe that it doesn't matter to it.

The point of attaching everything to the common post was so it could be moved up and down seasonally and for mowing, and gave a way to connect the cable (inside the pipe) between the mast and the bucket.  With my design the included 40' cable will reach it.  I didn't want to have two posts with the wire running in the air between or have to go down to the ground, through a trench, and back up the other post.

My goal was to come up with an install as close to a CWOP score of 30 and be all on one mast for simplicity.  I was also hoping to keep it close enough to the house so I could run a AC cable out to it in the winter for a bucket heater.  That is why I might install it where my current station is vs. north of my place past the pond.

I would be curious who has achieve the highest CWOP score on a single pole?  Does anyone else have a single pole install who has come up with another method?  Based on my recollection you lose 2-3 points with a stock Davis bucket on top design because you either lose points for having the temp too low or the bucket too high.  That is even with mounting the anemometer separately.

There is a large flag pole manufacturer in the industrial park a mile down the road from me.  I am considering seeing what they have on hand for poles, perhaps some "seconds" or rejects.   A flag pole has a huge windload and no guy wires, not that they don't sway at all, but most of them don't sway much at all.

Thanks!

Lew

[looney2ns]

Lew, design looking good. I too would be concerned about rain gauge stability in high winds based on current drawing. 

[FarmingtonWeather]

That link refers to an AWOS site vs ASOS used by the NWS. AWOS locations are not installed/maintained by the NWS and are not used for official climate purposes but provide realtime conditions for airport operations. Although it would still be important to site it correctly for accurate temp readings for density altitude and other observations.

Gulp, you are right.  After an extensive search on the internet and on the NWS site I was unable to find out who there hardware supplier was or what a typical stations looks like.  I did find their COOP siting info:

Proper Siting

The COOP network has provided climate and weather data for over 100 years. Consistency of the measurements is an attribute of the network, and it has been maintained by rare and/or gradual change, and established standards for exposure, of instruments over the life of the network. In order to preserve the integrity of the network, NWS has established standards for equipment, siting, and exposure.

Temperature sensor siting: The sensor should be mounted 5 feet +/- 1 foot above the ground. The ground over which the shelter [radiation] is located should be typical of the surrounding area. A level, open clearing is desirable so the thermometers are freely ventilated by air flow. Do not install the sensor on a steep slope or in a sheltered hollow unless it is typical of the area or unless data from that type of site are desired. When possible, the shelter should be no closer than four times the height of any obstruction (tree, fence, building, etc.). The sensor should be at least 100 feet from any paved or concrete surface.

Precipitation gauge siting: The exposure of a rain gauge is very important for obtaining accurate measurements. Gauges should not be located close to isolated obstructions such as trees and buildings, which may deflect precipitation due to erratic turbulence. To avoid wind and resulting turbulence problems, do not locate gauges in wide-open spaces or on elevated sites, such as the tops of buildings. The best site for a gauge is one in which it is protected in all directions, such as in an opening in a grove of trees. The height of the protection should not exceed twice its distance from the gauge. As a general rule, the windier the gauge location is, the greater the precipitation error will be.

The items in bold was their emphasis, not mine.  Based on what they considered important enough to make bold was just two things.  Keep the temp sensor 3-5' above the ground and don't put the rain guage on top of a building.  They also talk about protection for the rain gauge.  I am guessing they are talking about something like the Alter.  They don't talk about the height of the rain guage from the ground unlike CWOPs reccomendation of 2'.  I think it is commonly agreed that you don't want wind around the rain guage.  We don't all have an opening in a grove of trees like they mention so next best is putting something equivalent to an Alter around your rain guage and keeping it near the ground above grass.

Thanks,

Lew

[FarmingtonWeather]

I'm not worried about the pole shadow, if it's on the S side of the pole then that's not an issue. I'm just surprised that you would have a clear shot to the horizon from that low to the ground.

Ahh...I finally got what you were talking about....did you see the picture of my current setup?  My current UV sensor is out by my pool, the clearest area I have near the house where I am able to get a wireless signal.  When you live in a wooded area you don't have a true horizon unless you go up on the hill north of my house and then  you have the other problem, wind blowing up the hill from the NW.  IF I decide not to worry about heating the rain bucket and if I think the signal would reach, I could move it out by the pond, but not close enough to have a humidity impact.  At this rate my pond and Walleye will be history anyway.

If I didn't have a solar sensor it wouldn't be an issue.  First you all twist my arm into getting a solar sensor, then you beat me up for my location.  A guy can't win around here 

I am finally understanding why you suggested mounting the solar up the pole...duh...sometimes you have to clobber me over the head like Brian did the other day.

So...I should cancel the order for the Davis shelf and come up with a DIY bracket to mount the solar sensor up the pole, opposite of the anemometer, right?  I could run both cables down the pole together.   I could use the same bolts as the anemometer and just make a right angle bracket that the U-bolt holes go through with a hole in it for the sensor.  OK, that isn't so tough...just an extra cable.

It would be cool if the NWS had regional people who could stop out and advise you on site install...

Thanks again,

Lew

[niko]

It depends on your mechanical skills but I would suggest sticking with the shelf because it has the correct drilling to mount the solar (and UV if you get one later), but forget the sticks that mount the shelf to the rain gauge, and put the shelf on a simple bracket on the pole instead. 

[FarmingtonWeather]

It depends on your mechanical skills but I would suggest sticking with the shelf because it has the correct drilling to mount the solar (and UV if you get one later), but forget the sticks that mount the shelf to the rain gauge, and put the shelf on a simple bracket on the pole instead. 

Well, I was born with an Erector set in one hand, a Lincoln Log set in the other hand, crawling in a pile of Legos   Looks to me like a simple flat surface with a hole in the center for the bottom and cord to protrude through and three holes around it for the screws.  I have some aluminum laying around I could bend into a ninety and and drill 4 holes in it...5 minute job with one hand tied behind my back

With your solution I would still need to make the angle bracket anyway to attach their shelf to.

I am a graduate of Mickey Mouse Technical School

Thanks for your advice but I think I have this one covered.

Your comment about the horizon was invaluable...they say Einstein couldn't tie his shoes

[niko]

Well, I was born with an Erector set in one hand, a Lincoln Log set in the other hand, crawling in a pile of Legos  

As I wrote "It depends on your mechanical skills", sounds like you are good to go